Yea, that was an eye opener. Thank you for the follow up and I’m interested where it goes from here. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well it goes back to square one again. People don’t realize how long it takes to come up with loads and that goes for all loads. If you have nothing to go by then it takes even longer. What has happened with this load has accomplished two things. First I have a base line now and can decrease the charge and know that it will be lower then this one. Then hopefully I can gauge how much pressure drops along with fps. The second thing I guess is my citori didn’t go boom with an additional 9000 psi. Recoil sure wasn’t a good indication of that pressure. I’m hoping not to blow the pattern with a decrease in powder, I will know more this weekend. This decrease in powder is going to have an effect on stack height, so I will have some adjustments to make there also………………..
A couple questions come to mind and if anyone has an idea let me know. #1 how much is the case going to expand with less powder- I would assume less- I have measurements. #2 how much pressure increase if any is happening with using hot glue to seal the over shot card vs elmers glue?
Got the results back on the reduced powder charge of 572. If you open the picture of test results in a new window you can enlarge so you can actually read it.
There is also a 20 gauge load at the bottom that was tested. The 20 gauge load patterns good, and the numbers look good. I patterned out of o/u with skeet chokes at 40 yards. The 444 marlin with 572 is a big no go, as pressure is to high and the velocity has been lost. One positive is that when sealing the over shot card, there is a big difference in hot glue vs elmer's glue, in the amount of pressure that is gonna happen. The reduced powder charge of 8.2 grains was used, loaded the same as before. The cases didn't expand as much and there was no need to resize and they ejected fine. The 572 powder is not a 410 powder and I knew that going in on this, and the results have proved the same. The next powder choice will be 2400.
Thanks for the follow up. A work in progress for sure. Is the next powder a slower burn rate? Surely there is a powder to get the speed and pressure where you need to be. Thinking on this, there’s no tellin what combinations factories try in their quest for safe loads for the public. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It is a slower burn powder, actually its below blue dot and 410. The main problem with looking at the burn rate is the cases use large riffle primers and not 209's. This causes pressure to react different. With all the formal and non formal testing, still not sure there is any correlation between the two. I do have some 410 brass being made with 209 primer pockets, so maybe I will test that when I get a chance. This isn't a fast process, as you can tell, and the only way to be for sure is to have them tested. Yes, I agree with you on the company's that produce loads for us. People often want loads for this and that, but don't realize the work that goes into it, and sometimes it just doesn't work, so you haver to start over. Let me just say a word on Bruce ( guy testing ), he is a super nice guy, and is willing to go the extra mile to get it done. We have had many conversations and he is very helpful. Its nice to be able to talk loads with someone that understands the whole process and not just putting them in the chamber and pulling the trigger. And there is a good chance that this will never work, but not ready to give up just yet. Next week may be a different story.
Little update on the 444 marlin. Seems like there is more interest then I had expected. I have been talking to some guys on shotgun world and we have been comparing notes, so a new load is loaded up and the testing begins. This load is 13 grains of 410 powder. Everything up to the shot is the same. I could not get a full 1/2 oz of #9’s. I settled on .480 oz. with less room in the case, it also raised the overshot card and required less hot glue to seal the overshot card. Not sure at this point, but I think just gluing the outer edges will be sufficient, but will require a new tip for the glue gun. I hope to pattern some this weekend and will post the results.
Ok have a question! For comment . The hot melt glue obviously raises the pressure/FPS from the test chart compared to the wood glue . So is it fair to say when you see factories that have the melted plastic centre holding crimp eg winchester buckshots rabbit load ets they must obviously take the extra resistance into account when developing the recipe at the lab to utilise that tight weatherproof sealed crimp. Interesting....
Good question! I would say that the melted plastic or sealant used on the factory shells is only over laid on the top to prevent moisture from entering. Would not think it would be all that thick. The hot glue fills the top of the shell solid to the top. A little more testing is needed before I can say if the hot glue solid or just around the edge effects pressure that much. You are correct the difference between hot glue like in the pic and wood glue makes a huge difference in pressure. This load actually takes up more room in the case, so there is less area on top of the overshot card for the glue. I do know after talking to some others, they could not get anything but bloopers out of the 444 case and then seen my post here and started using hot glue and they also agree that the difference between weird sounding report, missed targets and loads that sound correct and break clays is hot glue.
Still going down this rabbit hole. Yea I know I’m a sucker for punishment. I have been waiting on the brass god to bless me with some 2400. We’ll ask and you shall receive. Guess some poor soul felt sorry for me and sold me some 2400. I started with 13 gains. This is more powder then the other loads, so I had to reduce the fiber wad to about 1/4 inch. Everything else the same. This load was pretty anemic and sounded off. I increased the power to 14 grains and shot them today. Much better sounding and broke clays. I need to pattern these and some loads with 410 powder and if it looks good, then off they go to be tested.
Had a chance to do some pattern work today. First load is 14 grains of 410. All shot at 30 yards, bottom barrel skeet choke
Second is 14 grains of 2400. I like both loads and will send them both out to be tested after the holidays.
The reloading bench was getting cold, so I decided to tackle the 444 marlin loads. Like earlier stated one load is 14 grains of alliant 410. The other is 14 grains of 2400. I had a conversation with another reloader on another forum about this load and he stated that in his mind, you couldn’t load anything in the 444 marlin that would be over pressure. I don’t take other peoples word on load data and my posted testing proves this not true, as they were 6000 psi over Saami spec. These loads will go out Monday. I will post results when I get them. I always like to have a back up plan, so my buddy that is testing my loads came through with some turned brass cases that will take the 209 primer. The load for these is also 14 grains of 410. These cases were turned so I could use a plastic wad. The wad that goes in these is the gualandi H40 wad that is cut to the MG410 wad length. If you didn’t know the H40 wad( BP tps) is for 3” cases. When loading 410 brass, there isn’t much room in the case for a full 1/2 oz of #9 shot. So wad options are hard to adjust for. There are other options for plastic wads, but the cases would have to be opened up .001-.002. The cases that are pictured have an internal diameter of .398
It’s time for an update on the 444 marlin cases. There are some typos on the test sheet. The primer is the Remington 2 1/2 pistol primer and the wad is a shot protector. It was loaded as follows: 14 gr 410 powder over powder card(.430) diameter 70 lbs pressure .250 thick fiber wad(.430) diameter 70 lbs shot protector cut to length( big straw) 1/2 #9 over shot card .450 diameter hot glued in
As you can see the fps and pressure are pretty consistent, pressure seems a bit low, but no more unburnt powder left in the barrel then a Winchester 410 factory load. I would like 100 fps more and I got room on the pressure side, so I will increase the powder charge and retest. The problem I’m going to run into is the room in the case is limited, so not sure how much I can up the powder. I think I’m really close but time will tell
The 444 marlin loaded with the same but 2400 powder was a no go. There was a 4000 psi swing in the pressure and the fps was around 800.
Update: loaded some more 444 marlin cases with 410 powder. I bumped up a grain (15 total) and loaded them the same way. The velocities seem to be very consistent with the last load so hopefully I can hit my 1200 fps goal. I would like to get a little more pressure out of this load, but may not be possible. Time will tell. When bruce gets moved these will go out to him to be tested. I will post results good or bad when complete.
Really I’m just hard headed and usually giving up just isn’t who I am. It has got me into lots of trouble over the years. You would think I would learn. Honestly even if I never shoot another 444 marlin case it has been a learning experience. One of the best ways to learn about what powder/ primers and the such will do is spend time reloading and then doing patterns for those reloads.
