Hi Power Alloy Frame

Discussion in 'Browning Hi Power Handgun' started by In The Ten Ring, Apr 1, 2017.

  1. sub-moa

    sub-moa .410

    Good for you Ten Ring...congrats, they look much better than most...the dust cover wear is minimal :).

    FWIW, in my experience...and digital scale ;); there's just over 6 oz. difference between an '80s LW and an otherwise identical, '80s Vigilant Model...and it's not much more when compared to later MkII (just over 7 oz.) and MkIII (just under 7 oz.) BHPs.
  2. Those are nice, Ten Ring. Congrats. :)
  3. In The Ten Ring

    In The Ten Ring .270 WIN

    Thanks guys! You wouldn't think 6 or 7 oz would make that much of a difference but it sure feels like it. Now to clean and lube them (they smell like Hoppe's #9 already) and get them to the range. I have read 115 grain standard pressure is recommended. Your thoughts?

    I have 1K of Sellier and Bellot 124 grain FMJ coming, is that too heavy for these frames? If and when one becomes a carry piece, I am thinking standard pressure Hornady Critical Defense might be a good load. Thoughts?
  4. sub-moa

    sub-moa .410

    Placemark for a bit later ;).....
  5. In The Ten Ring

    In The Ten Ring .270 WIN

    OK, today's limited update. I took out a Mark II (steel frame) and one of the alloy HP's and loaded the alloy HP's mag with 13 rounds of 124 grain and inserted the mag. Then I compared the weight of the "loaded" weapon verses the unloaded Mark II. The alloy HP seemed to be the same weight or perhaps a bit less. I do not have a scale to do a real comparison.

    That's with 124 grain bullets, I plan to carry 115 grainers in it. Very nice. :cool:
  6. sub-moa

    sub-moa .410


    6 or 7 oz. does make a difference, doesn't it ;).

    The BHP...hell the original "Luger", was designed around the 124, the 115 didn't come about until the mid '30s and was originally loaded hot for the Suomi SMG.

    Soooo, 115 v. 124 isn't really the question, it's how hot either is loaded in relation to the other. S&B loads their 124 at about 1180 and their 115 as high as 1287 :eek:...though I just updated my existing notes and see it listed now at 1237. The free recoil of the 124 would be just under 9 FPE while the hotter 115 would be just over 9 FPE...making the 115 slightly harder on the gun. S&B does tend to load their stuff fairly hot. American Eagle on the other hand advertises their 124 @ only 1o30 with free recoil just a bit over 7 FPE while their 115 is advertised @ 1180 with free recoil being almost 8 FPE. Fiocchi loads their 124 to 1150 :eek: and their 115 to 1250...free recoil for the 124 is just under 8.5 while the 115 is just over 8.5..in other words; "It Depends" o_O;). There's a formula one can use IF one has the bullet weight, powder weight, actual muzzle velocity and pistol weight, OR one can just stick with SAAMI Standard Pressure 9mm Luger/Parabellum...and avoid 9mm NATO or 9mm+P or 9mm+p+ :).

    Critical Defense...I assume you mean the 115 v. 100 Lite?, ought to work well enough for the LW...it runs about 1150 so free recoil ought to run about 7.5 FPE, though it'll be fairly expensive running enough through it to be sure of reliability (it IS more of a TC shape)...the #1 concern ;).
  7. sub-moa

    sub-moa .410

    FWIW, just found some of my existing BHP weight notes, here's a few:

    Stock '81 LW...plastic grips/original mag numbered to the gun; 723 g. (25.5 oz.)
    Stock '81 Vigilante...wood grips/original mag; 900 g. (31.7 oz.)
    Stock '68 "T"...wood grips/original mag, 894 g. (29.6 oz.)
    Stock '89 MkII...thumbrest plastic/original mag; 927 g. (32.7 oz.)
    Stock '89 MkIII...thumbrest plastic/original mag; 915 g. (32.2 oz.)
    Stock '95 MkIII (cast)...thumbrest grips/original mousetrap mag; 913 g. (32.2 oz.)
    Stock '94 MkIII .40...thumbrest grips/original mousetrap mag; 967 g. (34.1 oz.)
    Stock '04 Practical 9mm...Pachmayr grips/original mousetrap mag; 978 g. (34.5 oz.)
    Stock '95 Practical .40...Pachmayr grips/original mousetrap mag; 1029 g. (36.3 oz.)

    More:
    Stock Pre-war P35...wood/original mag; 893 g. (31.5 oz.)
    Stock '44 P640b...brown Bakelite grips/original mag; 904 g. (31.9 oz.)
    Stock '44 Inglis No2 MkI*...plastic/original mag; 949 g. (33.5 oz.)
    Stock '48 P35...wood/original mag; 910 g. (32.1 oz.)
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2017
  8. Very interesting, Mr. Sub-Moa. I just bought some Sellier & Bellot from sgammo. I was more or less guessing, since I lack both your knowledge and your expertise. The ammo is marked SB9A. 115 grs. 7.5 g. Everything else is written in Czech, and I think it basically says "Don't blow your foot off, dummy." The Internet says this round runs a Muzzle Velocity of 1280 fps. Is that hot? Too hot? Too hot for LW BHP?
  9. sub-moa

    sub-moa .410

    Very kind of you MC...very kind indeed, thank you :oops:. SB9A is the 115 (7.5 g.) load that used to be rated @ 1287, but I just found a reference placing it @ 1237 from a 4" barrel :rolleyes:, so who knows without running it through a set of screens. 1280 IS on the "hot" side, I wouldn't run it through MY LWs...on a regular basis anyway. As a point of reference the British WWII Mark 2z 115 started life in 1944 @ 1250...shortly thereafter it was spec'd up to 1300 to run the STEN guns under adverse conditions. The S&B you speak of...@ 1280, is right up there.





    Oh, Nespouštěj nohu z figuríny ;):)
  10. In The Ten Ring

    In The Ten Ring .270 WIN

    Oh gosh yes, very good points on velocity sub-moa! Thank you for the warnings.

    I've been reading everything I can find online about the light-weight frames and many people warn about high velocity rounds and Sellier and Bellot seemed to qualify as "high velocity." *I had bought the S&B before ordering the HP's, I had shot S&B many years ago and it seemed to be a good round. I recall 124 grain being a good performer in my other 9mm's.

    *Nice collection by the way.*

    I actually have a chronograph, I haven't used it in years but I stored it with battery out and in the original box. I can dig that up. Tn9outdoors of youtube fame did a bunch of testing of factory defensive loads and so, the information is right on youtube. That's why I think Critical Defense would be a good round. I'd run a box through and see how that went, if accurate and to point of aim (or higher, I am fine with rounds shooting high), I'd order a 1000 and use as needed.

    The video, if anyone wants to see it.

  11. In The Ten Ring

    In The Ten Ring .270 WIN

    I just called the seller, Ohio Ordnance Works, and complimented them on how well packaged the weapons were (even the FFL was impressed). I also asked how many units came in. They didn't have a number on the alloy frames but together with the steel frames, the number was only 50. :eek:
  12. sub-moa

    sub-moa .410

    Thanks for the video Ten Ring, it was well done and I enjoyed it. Not being a UTube guy, I rely upon personal experience/observation which sometimes limits what I can speak to particularly when it comes to "new stuff". With all the ridiculous videos pushed by...it seems like, anyone with a camera and an inflated sense of self worth, I've rarely visited UTube...but when I do it's almost always only when recommended by someone with credibility...thanks :). I guess I should look into them more frequently and just try to separate the one's I've described from the one's like you've posted.

    Yea, bullet weight...and weight of the propellant, the resulting velocity (while keeping within SAAMI spec) and pistol weight determines Free Recoil Energy...not perceived recoil ;), which translates to stress applied to the pistol itself. You can load a 115 hot enough to produce recoil...and faster movement of recoiling parts, greater than heavier bullets. I've got an excellent Chrono...Oehler 35P, just not a local range to set it up whenever I want :(. S&B is high quality ammunition, I'd shoot it...and have, in most other pistols...including forged frame BHPs...just not the LW in any quantity. Personal preference though :).

    THANKS, but what "collection" o_O? Just a small sampling of BHPs of different times/models/configurations for weight comparison purposes :):cool:.
  13. sub-moa

    sub-moa .410

    WADR Ten Ring, I've looked at the LWs for years...many years, and still don't have a handle on the number of LWs produced...or even imported o_O. Obviously, importation was in dribs and drabs and in the past they'd been scarfed up by some retailers who then "inflated" prices even more :(. Consider yourself fortunate :D.....
    In The Ten Ring likes this.
  14. In The Ten Ring

    In The Ten Ring .270 WIN

    No problem brother. TN9outdoors is the man when it comes to bullet testing. People and even police departments got into sending him shells to test for CCW & officer duty carry. I think he's stopped doing bullet tests though but he tested about everything there was to test.

    Oh I do man, I am very lucky on this. I haven't been looking that long for these, only "seriously" paying attention for a couple of months.

    I am especially lucky since Ohio Ordnance Works emailed me at 5 PM but I didn't check my email that day, I just happened to check their website at around 2 AM the next day and they weren't even on their website where logically one would think they would have been.

    It'll be some time before I get any custom work done on one of these. I'll try to get up a range report....what are your free recoil energy thoughts on Remington FMJ 115 grain?
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2017
  15. sub-moa

    sub-moa .410

    Thanks, I'll take your recommendation and have a look :). Used to be a Lead FA Instructor for the SP, we'd attend a professional jello shoot about every other year...that's been a while though. Done properly...in bulk with a bunch of attendees, each one was a major endeavor.

    Timing is everything sometimes huh ;)?

    Remington 115 (L8MM3) green box (50) is advertised @ 1145, which would produce FRE of 7.45 FPE...pretty mild ;). The Remington UMC 115 bulk 100/250 are advertised @ 1135, they'd...theoretically ;), recoil ever so slightly less. Again, that's using their data :rolleyes:.
  16. In The Ten Ring

    In The Ten Ring .270 WIN

    I'll bet that was a big event to coordinate.

    Good. I have some Remington FMJ ammo already. I used to be a front desk clerk at a motel and I won all but 1 of the monthly contests for signing up the most people to the loyalty card program. I spent every gift card on 9mm ammo from Walmart.
  17. In The Ten Ring

    In The Ten Ring .270 WIN

    Hmm. Another standard pressure hollow point that might be worth looking into.

  18. sub-moa

    sub-moa .410


    Field strip, inspect, thoroughly clean and get a good feel for it...then shoot it :D.

    So UR are the one ;)...living in hotels like I do, I'm Diamond, Platinum or at very least Gold in all the hotel and airline rewards programs :). You certainly spent the money well...you might try "biting the bullet" ;), buy bulk...at least for practice ammo :).....
    In The Ten Ring likes this.
  19. In The Ten Ring

    In The Ten Ring .270 WIN

    I had my tactics for signing people up and those tactics usually worked. :) It helped that I love meeting new people and making deals really is fun.

    I mostly buy ammo in bulk....usually surplus. Alas, surplus seems to be gone but hopefully not forever.
  20. sub-moa

    sub-moa .410

    You know what Ten Ring, ammo selection is always a matter of balance and ammo should be tailored to the particular pistol UR using it in. With that as background, testing the Remington 115 standard pressure JHP in the little Kahr PM9 is just plain...silly :rolleyes:. The Remington 115 standard pressure JHP was developed for pistols...particularly older pistols, that had a hard time with more modern aggressive JHPs. The Remington 115 ogive is virtually the same as ball and the HP is a small diameter...it feeds reliably where ball feeds reliably...THAT is the advantage of the Remington 115 JHP. The little Kahr...once proven, is reliable with modern aggressive HPs but it's short barrel produces substantially reduced velocity (just over 1000 fps) as compared to the standard factory 4" unvented test barrel, which is advertised as 1135...same as their 115 ball. FWIW, I used to carry my PM9 as a bug...even occasionally for work travel where the work location called for a lower key profile. That being the case, some of that travel involved flying into EWR (Newark, NJ airport) where there WAS a legal concern with HP ammunition, so I played it safe...legal jeopardy wise, and used CorBon Pow'RBall 100+P...it's advertised @ 1475 :eek:. FWIW, the BHP will produce right at the advertised 1475, but the short barrel PM9...not so much ;). The reduced velocity out of the Kahr will likely reduce expansion a bit which would be expected to increase penetration a bit...trade offs ;).

    Back on track, the Remington 115 should shoot just as mildly as their 115 ball, shoot to the same POI and feed reliably...it's just a bit feeble IMHO when it comes to disrupting meat. Consider that the increased velocity produced by the BHP will almost certainly increase expansion...at the expense of penetration, and penetration from the shorter barrel PM9 was just barely 12". All of which might not be a bad thing, but much depends upon one's outlook on such testing. Although it's a bit stiffer (1210 v. 1135), the Speer Gold Dot standard pressure 115 has a more modern HP design with a larger HP diameter...I believe it's a MUCH more effective non +P HP design...that also feeds extremely well. AND, considering the intended SD/HD use of both, I...personally, accept the relatively small (8.2 v. 7.45) difference in free recoil energy that might stress my LW pistol just a bit more...in order to get more effective downrange performance. Yes, I'm taking my chances, but remember; the SD/HD ammo is used only enough to confirm it's reliable...and the Novak LW I've actually carried has a clean feedramp. NOT a recommendation in any way, I wouldn't want to contribute to the bashing of anyone else's precious LW BHP.
    Mister Coffee likes this.

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