Auto-5 Friction Pieces

Discussion in 'Browning Auto A-5' started by Rudolph31, Dec 9, 2017.

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  1. Rudolph31

    Rudolph31 .30-06

    There is a lot of confusion regarding this system which is critical to proper operation. I’m going to try to clear it up by discussing the parts, how they work, what happens when they’re set up right — and set up wrong.

    Except for magnums, there are 3 parts: the Bronze Friction Piece, Friction Ring, and the Friction Spring. The picture below shows those parts along with Recoil, Magazine, Action Springs, and a Mag Spring Retainer.
    [​IMG]

    The Bronze Friction Piece (BFP) is just a brake. It’s split so that it can contract in compression around the Magazine Tube. The Friction Spring goes over it to hold it snug. For light loads, the Friction Ring isn’t used.

    The BFP sits at the top of the Recoil Spring with its bevel facing forward. This mates to a corresponding bevel in the Barrel Ring. When the gun is fired, the barrel recoils aft and the front of the BFP is squeezed causing friction, slowing the barrel’s (and the bolt it’s locked to) speed down to an acceptable level. For heavy loads, the steel Friction Ring is placed between the Recoil Spring and the BFP with its bevel forward. Now when the gun fires the BFP gets squeezed from the front and the back — doubling the braking.

    The question always asked is “What is a heavy load?” To me, a heavy 12 gauge load is anything greater than 1 1/8oz @ 1200fps. But it really depends on your gun. If you’ve replaced your Recoil and Action Springs recently you’ll find you need the light setting for all but the most powerful shells. Or if your BFP is worn and your springs weak, the heavy setting will work with light target loads. For that reason, always start out with the gun set up for heavy loads. If it won’t cycle, add a few drops of motor oil before changing to the light setting. For really heavy loads, wipe the mag tube dry before firing.
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2017
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  2. Rudolph31

    Rudolph31 .30-06

    I’ve described how the system works when it’s set up properly. Now I’d like to talk about what happens with improper set up.

    If there’s too much friction, there’s no damage to the gun, it just doesn’t function as a semi-automatic. Some Trap shooters intentionally set their guns up this way so as not to annoy the shooter next to them. (Trap shooters are notoriously thin-skinned.)

    Too little friction is the big problem. As the bolt and barrel come flying aft the rear of the bolt hits the back of the receiver, hard. In one of Art Issacson’s videos he shows where the back of a receiver has been peened out of shape by repeated blows of the bolt. If the damage is not too bad, Art can hammer it back into shape, but the gun has been weakened. And I’m pretty sure this doesn’t do the bolt group any good either.

    With too little friction the gun operates marvelously. Who suspects trouble when everything is working so well? But if your Auto-5 is recoiling hard, that’s a clue that it’s time to either reset for heavy loads, or replace parts.

    The Action Spring is most often overlooked. That’s the bolt return spring in the stock. It’s easily replaced by removing the stock screw (and its lock screw) and sliding the stock off. It’s easy to do this even if you never intend to disassemble your Auto-5 any further. You will need a set of Browning screwdrivers, however.

    The Recoil Spring and Bronze Friction Piece are easy to replace. I’ve never seen a worn steel Friction Ring, but I have seen a useless Friction Spring.

    After cleaning and oiling, I used to set my guns up for heavy loads. But after about one and a half rounds of Skeet I’d have to switch to the light setting. That got tiresome so now I use less oil and start on the light setting. Find out what works for you. Remember, you want the most friction the gun will cycle with.

    I can understand why, years ago, someone would buy a used Auto-5 and shoot it “as-is”. It probably didn’t come with a manual and those parts aren’t self-explanatory. But now, with the internet, anyone can download an Owners Manual.
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  3. Rudolph31

    Rudolph31 .30-06

    Last, I’d like to talk about recoil. The Auto-5 has a bad reputation for this. It never made sense to me that a gun that has recoiling parts with energy being absorbed by two springs could recoil harder than a fixed breech gun like a pump or O/U. But I think I understand it now.

    I’ll preface my comments by saying the following is my opinion. I’m normally careful to stick to verifiable facts but I’ll climb out on a limb just this once. If anyone with a better understanding of physics wants to correct me, they’re welcome.

    Let’s take an Auto-5 with no friction parts at all, and very weak springs. At the moment of firing, the barrel and bolt will accelerate aft at incredible speed. The shooter will feel zero recoil — until the bolt slams into the back of the receiver — then he gets it all at once. In effect, the light weight of the bolt & barrel, compared to that of the entire gun, have become an Accelerator.

    Accelerators are sometimes put on guns — usually machine guns — to increase recoil for more reliable operation. The Colt Service Ace had one in the form of a floating chamber to make a .22LR cartridge approximate the feel of a .45ACP.

    We learned in High School that Force=Mass x Acceleration (F=MA). So A=F/M. In other words, the light recoiling mass of the bolt & barrel will accelerate much faster than the entire gun. We also learned that Kinetic Energy = 1/2 MV^2. So although doubling the mass doubles the energy, doubling the speed quadruples it, tripling the speed increases the energy by a factor of nine.

    I don’t know how much faster our theoretical bolt & barrel go, but it explains to me how a Long Recoil gun like an Auto-5 can kick harder than a pump.

    Now look at an Auto-5 that’s set up perfectly. At the moment of firing, the shooter will feel some recoil because the friction pieces are dragging the rest of the gun aft. The Recoil and Action Springs are absorbing the energy of the bolt & barrel, and if there’s any energy left the shooter will get the rest at the end of travel. I believe there’s much less total recoil in this situation and what’s there is so spread out over time that it feels negligible.

    To me, the Auto-5 is a pleasure to shoot. For others, the strange pogo-stick action of the cycling parts is too distracting. And I admit to having most of a box of 1600fps slugs left over. No combination of dry tube and heavy setting could mitigate that kick. But, with the gun set for maximum friction, I still believe those slugs were less painful than if I’d fired them from a pump or an O/U.
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
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  4. mike4570

    mike4570 Copper BB

    Regarding the bronze friction piece and the steel spring. Should the gap in the spring and the gap in the friction piece align?
    I have had several old Model 11 remingtons where the gap's were offset. Just wondering....
    Thanks for any insight.
    Mike
  5. Rudolph31

    Rudolph31 .30-06

    I have heard both; but it’s not in the manual, and I don’t think it makes any difference. But if you want to know what I do, for no particular reason, I make sure that they don’t.
  6. kumpe

    kumpe .410

    I had the exact same problem with one of my Auto-5's. My problem was fixed by two things.

    The first is the one you already tried, polishing the chamber. I had to do quite a bit of polishing to make shells come out smoothly.
    I don't think you have to worry about doing it too much as long as you use a fine abrasive. I used a normal piece of cloth on a brass brush and applied a metal polishing compound.
    As for you, this made things better but not perfect.

    The second thing that fixed it for me was changing the extractor. Mine was pretty worn so I replaced it, but it could also be that the extractor spring is weakened, or that the extractor and spring slot on the bolt needs a cleaning to allow it to move freely.
    Rudolph31 likes this.
  7. Rudolph31

    Rudolph31 .30-06

    Good advice from Kumpe and Ranger.

    The extractors may be worn, there may be crud their slots, and their springs may need replacing. The left extractor in particular is prone to breaking. Browning beefed it up and new old-style extractors may be hard to find. But the new ones can be modified. https://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/mgwi/prod/B1111147

    A change in ammo is a great idea. None of my guns like the cheap Winchester. And I have one gun that wouldn’t cycle anything other than Federal — until a friend noticed that the left extractor was broken.

    Polishing the chamber is a good idea too, but emery cloth seems like overkill. I’d use 0000 steel wool turned with a drill.

    One other thing. You’ve replaced your recoil spring. I’ve had trouble with my guns cycling target loads with a new spring in place.
  8. ClemY

    ClemY Copper BB

    When you are replacing springs, don't forget the action spring. It is the one in the stock. Mine got crudded up and wouldn't close the action in cold weather.

    For shells, I just use the Federal shells I get from Walmart. They are inexpensive ($21/100) and seem to work fine in my guns.

    Checking extractors and polishing the chamber of an old barrel are a good place to start.
  9. Rudolph31

    Rudolph31 .30-06

    Last edited: May 13, 2019
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  10. Rudolph31

    Rudolph31 .30-06

  11. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    (636) 944-3630. Brad will most likely answer, could be nick. Both are Arts sons.
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2022
  12. Michael Milligan

    Michael Milligan Copper BB

    So, I have a Belgian made Light 12. 28" Full choke. I also have a Japan made 3" mag with an Invector barrel. I would like to use the Invector barrel for sporting clays. What is the best ring configuration to shoot lighter 2 3/4" shells in that gun?

    MM
  13. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    You can’t swap barrels from 3” gun to 2 3/4 gun, and vise versa. If you wanna shoot 2 3/4 inch shells in your 3 “ mag you can do so. With that being said my mag( in its original state) will not cycle target loads. You can try to start with heavy setting, then go to light setting, but probably won’t cycle correctly. If you wanna make the mag fire target loads then you will have to set it up as a light 12 with a light 12 spring and all. If you need more on that you can email me
  14. Bill Idaho

    Bill Idaho .270 WIN

    I was able to get one of my magnums to cycle (quite reliably) with 1 oz, 3 dram loads using the magnum spring, one of the two smaller bronze friction collars, and no steel friction rings. I still kept the beveled edge of the bronze friction ring facing the barrel lug. With the steel ring installed between the rear of the spring and the receiver, as commonly configured for a standard or light 12 set up for light loads-- it would not run right all the time. I don't know how worn the recoil spring is/was, but as I recall it still measured well within usable length. Admittedly, with a brand new recoil spring it very well might not function, as whatever wear or use the existing spring is just enough to allow the thing to cycle.
    One of my other magnums set up this exact way won't run as reliably. It will cycle every once in awhile, but not 100% of the time. Strange.
  15. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    As far as I know, the only way to get a mag to cycle 100% of the time with light target loads is to use a light 12 spring and set up. It will work no problems. You don’t have to leave or add anything, don’t need anything special in shells. Regular old gun clubs work just fine.
  16. Michael Milligan

    Michael Milligan Copper BB

    When I bought my first two Auto-5's, they came with a small container of a light colored grease to use on the magazine tube. Of course in later years that didn't happen. I get numerous opinions as to what and how much lube to use on the magazine tube. What is the consensus here?
  17. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    30 weight oil and wiped off. If won’t cycle add a little more, and I do mean little. I always use felt recoil as a guide
  18. Bill Idaho

    Bill Idaho .270 WIN

    Ranger 6 is right on the money. According to Art's videos, a drop or two of 30 weight motor oil is all that is needed. If for some reason you need a little less resistance, for example your particular gun won't reliably cycle 2 3/4 dram loads yet seems to cycle 3 dram loads, add one more drop. I have wondered if a person applied TOO much lube, would the gun have to be set up for heavy loads to offset the loss of friction due to the extra oil. Hmmmm....

    (I happen to use nothing but ATF on my guns, and get the exact same results particularly related to the A5 recoil system, but don't want to get into a "what's the best lube" thread drift. Hater's gonna hate.) As long as you don't use something like WD40.
  19. Ranger6

    Ranger6 Administrator Staff Member Administrator Global Moderator Forum Moderator

    Bill I have done to much oil, friction doesn’t happen. Kicks like a mule. I also use to use clp and if you google clp and look at what’s in it you will see anti friction additives. Never had a problem with clp until my 1909 wouldn’t cycle. Switched to 30 weight and it cycled fine. I now use 30 weight and save clp for semi auto.
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