Another Funken Engraved 16 g A5 in England.....

Discussion in 'Browning Auto A-5' started by Richard Stanley, Jan 18, 2017.

  1. Richard Stanley

    Richard Stanley Copper BB

    Hi fellow gun owners.

    For years I have been trying to trace the sister gun(s) to one passed to me by my late father. It is an FN 16b A5 heavily engraved by the Felix Funken in 1929 for the 1930 Liege exhibition. It was pictured in an article by Geoffrey Boothroyd (firearms advisor to the James Bond films) on December 27th 1979 in the Shooting Times and Country Magazine (appended). My father was a test pilot at Boscombe Down during the war and was seconded to a team of armaments experts led by Colonel Shepherd (the S in STEN gun) into recently liberated Europe to assess armaments development under the Nazis. At the FN factory Colonel Shepherd awarded the gun to my Father, then a Squadron Leader.

    Geoffrey has confirmed from FN in writing that the gun was looted by the advancing Germans into Reichsmarschall Goering's bulging collection, then liberated by the Americans into General Paton's. Note the victors' choice of verb! After his untimely death, the General's widow returned the gun to FN who put it at Colonel Shepherd's disposal. I have heard an unkind suggestion that this was to fend off research into possible war time collaboration. FN has put in writing that they have no interest in acquiring the gun. They believe that one of the three made was last heard of in New York so I have wasted a decade belonging to the US based Gun Boards without being able to send a single post and being given no explanation why. Luckily I have been traced by one @JohnA5UK who advised me I would get more data broadcasting on this forum.



    Following the Hungerford Massacre the licencing of repeating shotguns in the UK needed a deal more justification. A local firearms police officer originally suggested castrating it to be easier to licence. When he heard of its history then saw it he had to sit down, insist we keep it whole, then put its value at £120,000 some two decades ago. I suspect considerable dramatic licence! He took me under his wing and spent three years negotiating a 'not to use' licence from the home office for a 'gun of exceptional historic interest'. It has not been fired since the war and probably not since its proof rounds. Can anyone furnish the following data:



    Are there any records of the Funken engraved guns shown at the major exhibitions?

    where are these currently residing?

    did Funken vary his themes or stick to some set pieces?

    is any of his preparatory art work still accessible

    by what route can I gain a more flexible licence - even to fire it perhaps?

    By what factor might my supportive officer have been over dramatic?

    are there any photographs of Goering or Paton with it?



    I look forward to hearing from anyone with some answers.



    Richard
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2017
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  2. JohnA5UK

    JohnA5UK .22LR

    Hello Richard

    Now you are up and running on the Browning Owners forum!!! , we really need some photos ! Attached is the article about Richards A5 by Boothroyd.

    John

    Boothroyd.jpg
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2017
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  3. SHOOTER13

    SHOOTER13 Guest

    Welcome Richard...

    We look forward to following your quest for answers here on our forum...
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 18, 2017
  4. Rudolph31

    Rudolph31 .30-06

    I found Geoffrey Boothroyd:
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  5. Wingman

    Wingman .270 WIN

    Hi Richard

    Interesting post, I am also a UK based owner of a growing family of Auto-5's I assume from your post that your in the UK?

    Regarding licensing it should be fairly straightforward. Your right about the impact on our licensing laws that the Hungerford (and later Dunblane) incidents had, meaning that all auto loader or pump action shotguns must be limited to a max 3 shots. There is however a "Section 1" provision for shotguns over the 3 shot limit but these must be held on a Firearms Certificate not a Shotgun License, and you need to demonstrate to the police a good reason to own a gun of this type. Unfortunately historic interest is rarely taken into consideration for private individuals so unless your meet very specific criteria you'll be unlikely to get one purely on this basis. All of my Auto-5's have had the magazine tube "crimped" so they can only hold 2 rounds. This needs to be done by a registered dealer or gunsmith and the gun re-proofed only then can it be held on a normal shotgun license.

    So if you want to shoot it first thing is to determine what category it falls into, and then if you meet the criteria apply for the relevant license. I must admit I have never heard of a license "Not to Use for historic interest" for a private individual. All my years of shooting in the UK have never come across this, I would caution that you look into this very carefully if your holding the gun as the laws frequently change. Last thing you want is for it to get seized and destroyed by the police you may get a small reimbursement (as we did when our handguns were banned in the 90's) but unlikely if there is a licensing issue.

    Its funny but I saw a very highly engraved Auto-5 for auction recently on the Holts website here in the UK, I'll try ad dig out a link but I passed it by as I have just bought a new Perazzi O/U and simply dont have the funds or cabinet space available for another gun (for now anyways!!).. But I was sorely tempted!

    Please feel free to drop me a PM if you want....
  6. In The Ten Ring

    In The Ten Ring .270 WIN

    Engraved weapons always demand a premium. My first Auto 5 (bought with my Curio and Relics license and shipped to my doorstep) has "EEC" engraved into the side. I assume those are the initials of the original owner but my attempts to discover his name bore no fruit. The seller had bought it in a pawn shop/gunstore long before and even he tried to find out who "EEC" without any luck.
  7. Richard Stanley

    Richard Stanley Copper BB

  8. Richard Stanley

    Richard Stanley Copper BB

    Thanks for your response. Perhaps the rarity of this situation is what caused the licence 3 years to be obtained. Are you based at all near to wd7 7lt? That Holts occurrence sounds interesting. I googled them but their auction history had gone. Thanks again.
  9. Richard Stanley

    Richard Stanley Copper BB

    Thanks for your response. I have heard that Felix Funken recruited a team of around 8 engravers. One could imagine each being allowed to engrave their initials as with any work of art. Could EEC be one of their initials? I have heard of a book that lists their names.
    Richard
  10. In The Ten Ring

    In The Ten Ring .270 WIN

    I doubt it, as it's a standard A5, with standard engraving, standard barrel, I think it was made in the 1950's although I have never dated it. The only extra engraving it has is "EEC" on the left side of the receiver, although it's a stylized engraving. I need to get a pic of it.

    I have only shot that shotgun one time! That time was the first and only time hunting with it, the fall of 2004. I killed a squirrel with that shot from very high and quite far up in a tree.

    It has been reblued but looks gorgeous, of my scores of weapons, it is the only one my dad called "beautiful." He's not a gun guy and thus, appearances are everything. :p

    Hmm....after reading the article above...I wonder if this shotgun was originally ordered from FN with the initials engraved? Maybe it was specially ordered that way? Maybe the Funken crew did engrave it. I will have to get you guys a pic!

    I have always thought the Auto 5 was a "premium" shotgun for those with more money to spend. I view special order engraving as something for those with the money and desire for that. I suspect EEC, whoever he was, had a decent income back in the day. :)
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2017
  11. Rudolph31

    Rudolph31 .30-06

    Guys, the initials "EEC" are not those of any of the engravers mentioned in the S/V book.
    [​IMG]
  12. In The Ten Ring

    In The Ten Ring .270 WIN

    I didn't expect EEC to be an engraver, I suspect it's the shotgun owner's initials or whomever it was a gift for. Thanks for looking though. :)
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2017
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